Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome back to Four Decades at Gonzaga, a conversation with Gonzaga University President Thane Mikulo. In this podcast, we will hear from Gonzaga's 26th president, reflecting on his experiences over his nearly four decades in the Gonzaga community and talking about what's next.
I'm your host, Sarah Schwering, a two time alumna and Presidential communications specialist here at gu. In this episode will discuss the importance of Gonzaga's mission and share stories of some of the biggest accomplishments from his time as president. Welcome, Dr. McCullough.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Thank you very much, Sarah. Good to be here.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: So, Dr. McCullough, one thing that you always emphasize is that we should never lose our focus on student success and placing student needs at the center of what we do. So looking at the diversity of student populations, how do you think the student experience has evolved over the years and what changes are you most proud of in that regard?
[00:00:54] Speaker B: For one, we have over that period of time, grown in size and we've also really grown geographically such that a significant number of students come to GU from outside the Pacific Northwest, which is where most of our students over most of our history would have come from, both the Seattle and Tacoma area and also Montana and Idaho and Oregon. So we've seen a significant growth in diversity geographically. And as our nation has changed, we've seen a change in demographics by racial identity and ethnicity. But I think that what I'm particularly proud of is that so many people representing so many different places and identities feel at home and they feel that that Gonzaga ought to be a place they could feel at home at. And so when they are starting to worry about whether they're comfortable here, they speak up and they push on the institution and ask it to do more and to consider their needs and ways in which we can better support a diversity of thought and perspective and experience. And I think that has made us a richer place. I think we really are a place where people with very different political and ideological perspectives can come together and they can have authentic discussions and they can disagree and agree to disagree and change their perspectives through the experience of understanding another's very different point of view. And I think that is what a university is supposed to be and do. When you're too narrow and you represent too small a slice of Americana or even the world community, you simply can't bring that to the experience. That's certainly, I think, a big change. The other is we've really leaned into and emphasized the importance of trying to get outside of your own culture. You can do that on campus, but you can Also do that by studying abroad or moving into very different kinds of environments. And so considerable growth in that area. I think there was once a time when studying abroad was really the province of those who had the resources. And we've really worked hard to try to make that more affordable and open up possibilities all around the world, as well as increase the number of students who are coming to us from around the world. And so that's also been always a hallmark, but there's been a considerable growth in that area, and I'm particularly proud of that.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: So one of the points of pride is when you think about the transition from a first year undergrad student to a sophomore second year, that's a big transition. And over the years, our institution has consistently had a significantly high percentage of students that return for their second year. Talk to me about those students and their families. What do you think it is about this place that has allowed us to create an environment where they do want to return?
[00:04:02] Speaker B: Well, I think there are a number of factors that have really helped us to increase the year to year retention of our students. And that particular point in the trajectory, the first to second year is actually the most vulnerable. So it's the place where we see the greatest number of students from a given entering class leave. And so when we can post retention rates of, you know, 93 or 94%, it feels to me like, you know, we're probably doing something right because I think to. To assume that everyone will. Will return is. Is kind of a fantasy. I think it takes time to figure out whether or not this is the right place for you. I think sometimes people find along the way that they actually have an academic interest that's in a space we don't offer. They may find that it is more difficult than they expected it to be, and they need more time to be at home or to try this at a slower pace. If we're doing our work well, it's rigorous, you know, it challenges people and we ask a lot of people. And I think that the factor that's, you know, certainly also at the heart of it is this sort of affirmative answer to the question, is this the place I belong? Do I feel like I fit in? Do I feel like my people are here? And I feel like we do a lot of work up front to try to help people answer that question before they arrive. And I think that is a big part of the success. So, you know, really asking people to come and visit, having opportunities to engage with the students while they're here visiting to, you know, See the campus, sit in a class, have the opportunity to look at the residence halls. All those kinds of things are really, really significant. And a lot of universities do that work. But we structure things in such a way that we try to offer communities of people, communities of students and parents and alumni also into that. And so I think we have a formula or an approach to really trying to answer that question with the prospective student that helps from the beginning of this process. One other thing, I mean, many, many, many people have told me, many parents have told me, alums have told me that Gonzaga does a great job of communicating with them all along the process. And a lot of institutions have lost that or have chosen not to put that as an emphasis. And I think that distinctive way of trying to work with people sort of raises expectations along the way. And then the real test is, do we meet that when people are here? And I think, for the most part, people's experience is, yeah, we do. And so there's a kind of authenticity that runs through that that I am very proud of, and I hope the university never loses.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. So a lot of your work has happened outside of our campus. I think about, you know, our campus being in the heart of Spokane, in the heart of our Inland Northwest region, the heart of Logan neighborhood. And a lot of the work that we do and have done extends well beyond our supposed campus boundaries. So what role do you believe universities should play in the broader community in which they reside for us, Spokane, and how have you worked to strengthen relationships during your time?
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Well, that was a question that got posed to me and that I found myself posing to myself from very early on. The. The history of Gonzaga is a history that begins in large part with a fledgling community of immigrant people who came to this area and recognized that educated people were critical to the development of their community. You know, you need surveyors and you need accountants, and you need business people and you need lawyers. And so the Jesuits were invited to. To come and found a university here in what was then Spokane Falls in the late 1880s. And so, really, from the beginning, there has been an expectation of the Spokane region that we would contribute in a very objective and concrete way to the welfare of the community. And I think it's really easy for universities and colleges to lose their. The understanding of their origin story, but I don't think Gonzaga has ever lost that. There were times when we weren't doing maybe as good of a job explaining to people that we understood that and that that was a fundamental part of our way of thinking about who we were in relationship to the community. But that's something that we've really tried to emphasize and to make sure that our local and regional community members understand we, we want to be part of a thriving municipality and a thriving region. And so when we make decisions about how to expend resources or to develop programs or what initiatives we want to be a part of, that's always part of the discussion. Our recent effort, for example, to have Spokane and North Idaho designated as a tech hub is very much about that. We know the university itself is. Is probably not going to directly benefit as much from that designation initially, but that's okay because the economic welfare of our people in the region is kind of inextricably tied with our own welfare. And I personally believe, too, that there are opportunities in our academic programs and for our students and for employment that will come out of that. That will be something that Gonzaga and the other higher ed and broader, you know, educational communities will benefit from. So I. I feel this is a very important part of who we are. And, and I also always hope that the region understands how much we appreciate the support we receive and the ways in which people have helped us to continue to do our good work, because it really has been essential and instrumental.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: So some of those kind, kind of in the community initiatives and bridging faculty and staff and students with our community members that may otherwise not be as associated with the university. Opportunity Northeast Gonzaga Family Haven, Logan Neighborhood Outreach, working with Logan Elementary. What are some of the initiatives or programs that you've been the most proud of when it comes to being in the community?
[00:10:41] Speaker B: All of them and more. I mean, the law school has long supported a clinic that is intended to provide legal services for people who may not have the resources. And there are many needs that having counsel meaningfully, you know, aids and makes a difference around. Our accounting program in the School of Business assists people who don't have the means to necessarily complete their tax returns on their own and supports that. There are just so many different initiatives and efforts where people across the university have reached out and tried to develop relationships with communities or subcomponents that really need support and assistance. I'm proud of all of those initiatives. I am also really proud because many of those have attracted the support of benefactors. So when we think about how do you resource something like the Opportunity Northeast Initiative, which is really intended to focus on the needs and trying to respond to the identified needs of people in the northeast sort of quadrant of the Spokane region, There have been people who have come along and said, we love what you're doing and we want to help because we know that resources are limited and precious and we think this is really important, well worth doing. So we've been very gratified by the support that benefactors have provided to us to help with some of those initiatives. So it's been really robust and an important way for Gonzaga, too, to show up.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: So in all your spare time, you have served on countless boards. And as the person that's been documenting them over the years, the list is incredibly long. Ajcu, icw, among many, many others. Talk to me about why your time is so precious. Why do you feel like it was important for you to serve in leadership roles on those boards? On boards in our Spokane community, those specific to higher ed leadership? Why has it been important for you to serve in that way?
[00:12:53] Speaker B: It's interesting because a university president is expected to serve on certain boards and projects. You know, in a community like ours or in a region like ours, there are many requests and there are many opportunities. I could spend all of my time really going from one organization to another. In some cases, they are intended to serve our interests. The Independent Colleges of Washington ICW is comprised of the ten independent colleges of the state. I'd say most of the independent colleges of the state. And much of our work is to help educate members of the legislature and also community leaders and business leaders about the importance of the independent college experience and the ways in which our sector, if you will, is bringing benefit to our state and helping the state to attain its educational attainment goals. There are obviously great networking opportunities on a board like that, opportunities to collaborate and to exchange ideas with industry leaders. So there are those kinds of boards. But I've also been privileged to be invited to boards that didn't necessarily have to ask me and have gained so much of an understanding of how that particular organization operates. What kinds of needs exist in the community or in the region or in the state or even on a national level. I also think that it's important for Gonzaga to show up. You know, you can be a member of an organization or its board and just manage not to make meetings and people notice that. And I do think that people assume that you've got something to say and something to contribute. So it's a very symbiotic kind of experience. But it does create challenges because there are so many organizations that are looking for the insights and for the contributions of institutions like a Gonzaga, and so trying to figure out what the balance is and how to prioritize and and all of that has been always one of the many challenges around time management. I think always it comes down to really being gratified by coming to know some of the other people who are involved with these organizations and. And how hard they work and how much benefit they bring. It's just really humbling.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: So years ago, I heard you refer to Gonzaga as a small city.
So this analogy of the only way that we work is to find great people, to have great processes in place and support each other in our work. Talk to me about how our Jesuit mission guides this work, how we can operate in the way that we need to in service of our students and families and our community. How does our Jesuit mission help to guide us as a small city?
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Well, let me tackle the city part first, because it's a really intentional analog, if you will. I think many people who haven't participated in the work of a university or a college, the closest analogous image they have is kind of just like a bigger high school or, you know, a school, if you will. I think colleges and universities are less like schools and more like municipalities or cities because the assumptions and the expectations for all of the different services that we provide are, especially for a residential campus, more analogous to a municipality. We we house on our campus nearly 3,000 students almost every day of the year. We have to have hotels to put them in, and we have to have restaurants to feed them, and we have to have all the power and utilities to support that very dense population of students who are also drawing a lot of energy because of all the technology they use. There's a lot of infrastructure that is required to operate the institution. And we have those wonderful snowy days and those really hot summer days, and all of that climate has an impact on how we function. So we are probably, I think, better positioned to think about how we operate as a Jesuit mission when we think about ourselves as a city. Because I think municipalities, and of course, by extension, that would mean that my role is more like a mayor.
But, you know, they have to think about how all these systems are supposed to cooperate. There are trade offs, you know. And so for me, that's where a lot of the expression of our mission comes into being, the Society of Jesus. The Jesuits have articulated a set of values and priorities, and we're obligated to really think carefully about, for example, when we're building something, how do we build it, and what lessons are we trying to teach when we create a space and how does that impact the environment? How do we think about the ways in which renewable Resources might be integrated into that process. So there are many, many expressions of values that are sort of at the core of our identity as a. As a Catholic and Jesuit university that are, in my view, expectations that have to be experienced and expressed. It is not irrelevant that at the heart of the work of the society, as the Jesuits would say, in the parlance of the priesthood, they would say, you know, our work fundamentally is about the salv of souls. The heart of that is a recognition that there is a God, which is something that I think is becoming less popular. You know, we're in an age where more and more people are spending their time and their energy in spaces that are sort of facilitated by technology and virtual reality. We see less and less people going to church and participating in organized religion, and I think that's about a lot of things, But I think it's possible to both not participate in organized religion and acknowledge the existence of God and the importance of spirituality as well. And I think that's an evolution that we're paying a lot of attention to. But a belief in God demands of you certain things that, in the sort of. In the Christian tradition also, for me, are all about, you know, the dignity of. Of human life and. And the respect for people and the kinds of things that I think are hallmarks of what it is that we seek when we try to create experiences for our students and. And for, you know, those who are working with them. And so an awful lot of this gets manifested, I hope, in the experience that people have while they're here, and that, you know, not every type of behavior is acceptable. You know, we. We do actually have expectations.
We hold people accountable. And so there's just so many different expressions of the way in which our Jesuit mission animates the work. And it's complex. Sometimes people are critical because their ideas about how we should be doing things are different. Hopefully, there is that consistency of. Yeah, we can disagree about the particulars, but the primary thrusts are all there, and I hope that makes sense. I. I think, for me, it always all comes down to the experience of the students.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: So we do not have nearly enough time to talk through all of your successes and accomplishments during here.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: That makes me happy on two levels.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: So let's just talk through a few.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: So you've spent nearly four decades here, 16 as president.
In 2022, you took members of the board of trustees on a pilgrimage to Rome, Vatican City, and Florence, Italy. Talk to me about the vision behind that experience, what went into that decision. And then, of course, ultimately, what Your takeaways were from that time.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: To me, it comes down to another really fundamental construct that we understand is at the heart of. Of what we do, and that is the construct of relationship. When we're doing our best work, it's done in the context of relationship, powerful relationship. And, you know, our board of trustees is a important element in the formula of what makes Gonzaga work. They are tremendously generous. Many of them are alums, but some are not. Some have been parents and so have sort of vicariously experienced Gonzaga through the eyes and stories of their kids. But all of them are concerned about and want the best for the institution. Many of them support us generously, financially. They are really, really participative in the work of trying to help us make good decisions. And so who we have on that board and what their experience is is really important. It's also, I think, really important to note that to be a Jesuit university, we have to be in active relationship with the Society of Jesus. And the Society of Jesus is headquartered in Rome, right down the street from Vatican City. And not just going and looking at buildings, but actually engaging with the people who are at the heart of the work was really important. So we were very fortunate that the board was able to meet with the superior General of the Society, who is the leader of the Jesuits worldwide, Father Arturo Sosa and some of his staff, as well as some of the principal leaders of Jesuit works in Rome, and then for us to bring our group to the Vatican and to be part of a general audience with the pope. These experiences put you in direct connection with people who are actively in leadership of these really important institutions that are truly worldwide institutions. To have that experience and to be surrounded by the kinds of environments that Jesuits and Catholic leaders have been immersed in for centuries, and to learn about the stories and the histories of some of these institutions, I think really helped them to gain an additional dimension of experience about where the church is today, where the Society of Jesus is today, because though these institutions are old, they also are modern in the sense that they're both always looking to the future. They're looking to, where are we moving next? Where? Where do we need to be? Who do we need to be for? And so to be able to talk with some of these leaders who are really thought leaders of the next century, I think was a very powerful experience. And they got really good food along the way. So there's nothing not to like. But I would be remiss if I didn't call out the fact that Gonzaga has its own campus in Florence. It has been there for 60 years, basically our program, and it continues to thrive. It's a wonderful environment within which to understand the birth of the Renaissance and especially art and the importance of art as a mediating experience of humanity and human achievement. It's just a remarkable place to be and to have students study. And so many of our board had not been there, and so this was an opportunity for them, in some cases, to see firsthand the quality of the campus, the experience that our students were having, because we had students there at the time. So, yes, it was a wonderful, very generous investment on their part to make that happen.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: So you mentioned. When we talked about Gonzaga as a city, you mentioned the creation of new spaces, new buildings, renovation of existing buildings. During your tenure, the campus footprint and its buildings has changed a lot. There's been a lot of new buildings that have been constructed and open during your time. So let's talk about a few of those. Let's start with the John J. Hemingson Center. This year is the 10th anniversary of the opening of its doors. Talk to me about the impact that you think that, you know, that space has made for our campus when it comes to enrollment, when it comes to student success and experience. Talk to me about that building.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: The first thing to recognize is that for many years, Gonzaga was a very small institution, and it had a much smaller population. And so many of its buildings were scaled to a size that was appropriate for the time, but is no longer appropriate to even the scale of the student population we're currently trying to support. So the expansion of facilities and the modernization of facilities and especially the creation of facilities that had longer, longer lifespans was really important. And the Hemingson center was a dream that many of us had had in some form or fashion. We really wanted the Hemingson center to do a lot of things for us. And so it needed to be large, and it needed to be capable of bringing people together in a way that we never had been and to do things in support of our students that we had never been able to do. And it was a truly transformational facility. I mean, It's a, what, 170,000 square feet. It's got more bricks on it than almost a million bricks. It's just a. It's an enormous, wonderful, and highly functional, but also, I think, esthetically attractive building. It also allowed us to do some things architecturally that that were kind of out of the box. And, for example, you know, we stipulated that at no entrance, there could be any stairs as an impediment to people who had mobility impairments. And you can move right on into that without a lot of difficulty. And that, believe it or not, was not characteristic of many of the buildings that were built. So lots of different expressions there. But I think what is also important to recognize is that allowed us to begin transforming other already existing buildings to do better work, too. So it had a ripple effect. There are so many people who've come to campus, and they represent other institutions, and they look at it and experience it, and they say, we should have done that, you know, or we want to do that, or can we do that? Building has become very expensive. Even at that time, it was an expensive project, but we were very fortunate to have a tremendous amount of support through benefaction to get that done. And that's been a hallmark of most of the facilities that we've built. Not perhaps to the same degree, each and every one, but many of them have been almost fully supported by benefactors. And that's another really, really important sort of mark of the support for modernizing, expanding, and really having an impact on the entire campus.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: So in the last episode, you spoke to the relationship with Myrtle Woltson, and when announced at the launch of the Gonzaga will campaign about her transformational gift. A large component of that was dedicated towards a performing arts center.
[00:28:56] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: So talk to me about that building. You know, when we think about its location, the actual design, the thoughtfulness that went into that space, what it's made a difference for our students that are particularly interested in studying the performing arts. Talk to me about that space.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Well, I think that one of the things that's true is that in recent years, because there has been a lot of emphasis and needed to be a lot of emphasis on the sciences and on engineering and in technology and areas, disciplines, if you will, that are really crying out for people to come and work and to contribute, there's been rather less of an emphasis on the arts. And the arts are very, very important in terms of a holistic education, but also a Jesuit education. And Myrtle really understood that. We had a running start at putting together a smaller performing arts center that ultimately we were not able to see into fruition because there is an understanding and an appreciation that performance, as well as the experience of performance, is a dimension of human experience that's super important. And we're certainly here to help people gain mastery so that they can go out into a profession. And to do that, well, you need to master the technical requirements. But the world is changing so rapidly in so many different Ways that what we also fundamentally realize, and I believe this has served Jesuit education well, is that technical expertise is not enough. You have to be somebody who has the ability to be creative and to imagine new and different ways of doing things as the world evolves, if you're going to remain relevant. And so the fusion of the arts together with the sciences, for example, or the technically sophisticated requirements is a way of making people capable of being the creative people they're going to need to be. Because, you know, it might have been at one time that people, you know, trained to do one thing and then they went to work at a company and that's where they spent their entire lives. But that's not what people want to do anymore, and it's not what is actually happening in the space. So I think that Myrtle Wolfson really understood the value and the importance of aesthetic. She was a believer in beauty. And that is one of the most complicated buildings we've ever built. It is a sophisticated performing arts center. It is capable of hosting so many different types of creative performance work. I'm always going to be really, really proud that Gonzaga was the beneficiary and that she saw the potential and saw the relevance of that, because it is a gorgeous, state of the art facility and it's a real kind of jewel for the West Coast. I mean, we have people coming from all over the world performing there now, and it's a really lovely and important contribution to the experience.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: So when we think about the partnership with the University of Washington, the health partnership that resulted in a building across Spokane Falls Boulevard, just one block away from some of our athletic facilities, Talk to me about that space, you know, having a physical manifestation of that partnership. What has it done for our region when it comes to the health sciences students that are looking for those kind of careers? What has that building done?
[00:32:34] Speaker B: This was born out of a challenge because our country desperately needs people in the health care arena, and it needs well trained and well educated people across the span of health related disciplines in great numbers. We do not have an adequate number of doctors. We do not have an adequate number of nurses. There are all kinds of people with professional health expertise that are desperately needed across our country in rural settings and in urban settings, just a lot of health related needs. And as our country ages and the population gradually becomes older and people are living longer, their health care needs are becoming more acute and the expansive nature of the populations that need better health care is growing. So when the University of Washington came to Gonzaga to say, will you partner with us? On the continuation of our medical education program, we had to answer the question, well, where is this going to be? And initially it was in a building we had that was adequate, but. But maybe not quite adequate. It was through another partnership that that really came into being, and that was with McKinstry and the leadership and vision of Dean Allen, who is the developer and also helped finance that project. It was because he believes in the importance of health and health education and providing health. And he also is a huge believer in partnerships. And that's another important keyword. We can only do so much on our own. We might be able to create a small program in a particular discipline, but to have the chance to partner with one of the top ranked medical education programs in the nation, and for them to want to partner with us and to provide basic science courses in that partnership has been really super important. But I think the future success of institutions like Gonzaga is going to be found in partnerships like that. That partnership could expand. And there are other disciplines that are not related to health that the University of Washington and Gonzaga could partner on. And there are some that we are, but there's more that could happen there. But there are other institutions as well. And believe it or not, this, for me, as a university president, is where the relevance of a opportunity like the Pac 12 comes in. Because all of the other members of the PAC12 that is in currently in kind of reformation, they're state institutions, they're large, and many of them have flagship programs that open up possibilities for academic partnership. So if we think about it too narrowly and only look at the athletics, I think we're missing a huge opportunity. And fortunately, there are presidents at some of these institutions who see it the same way, because state institutions have their own challenges. And so, as I think has been found in our partnership with uw, we're both benefiting. We benefit from each other's expertise and the opportunities that can be opened up there. So that building is a fabulous, beautiful building that can evolve and adapt as the needs change. And it's given us an opportunity to put some of our programs in close proximity to the medical students and to the nursing students that are in an adjoining building. There's just a tremendous amount, I think, of opportunity that we're beginning to really see come out of that. But having the kind of environment that allows multiple disciplines to benefit through shared resources is just a great opportunity. And it'll continue, I think, to bear fruit.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: So one other academic building that I wanted to talk through is the integrated science and engineering space you mentioned. When we were talking about the Performing Arts center, how it's that bridging of disciplines. You have students that may be majoring in an area of engineering, but really interested in a performing arts and vice versa. Talk to me about the vision behind that building. When we think about how it became, again, a physical connector to our sciences and our engineering spaces that had existed previously.
[00:37:00] Speaker B: Well, you know, I think traditionally, the disciplines tend to be pretty provincial, and so they are not necessarily oriented towards working collaboratively across departmental lines. The original concept was actually to build two buildings. One additional building for engineering, one additional building for the sciences. But the leadership at the time, academically, saw the opportunity that could come with creating a space that brought colleagues literally together and asked them to consider whether or not there could be opportunities to collaborate and to basically form partnerships and even new sort of interdisciplinary programs. That is a very organic process. It's not something that you can force or that you can necessarily dictate or demand. But bringing people together often does create synergies. And indeed, some of the programs that are now currently under development are truly interdisciplinary programs. And that, to me, matches very much where our students are. I mean, our students understand that, you know, there are formal requirements of a discipline, but many of our students want to major or gain expertise in multiple disciplines, and they're even in the sort of in the process of creating their own degrees to a certain degree. So moving in a way that appreciates and understands that interdisciplinary connections and projects and work is much more a kind of a contemporary view of how certain of the disciplines can interrelate with one another is the vision behind that facility. And I'm very pleased to see how it continues to evolve, because, for example, we're right now designing a new laboratory that is a bioengineering laboratory. That would not be possible without this facility and without the collaboration of faculty who are from very different disciplines working together, as well as the need to bring new faculty who have expertise in that space. So. So those kinds of things are kind of fulfilling the vision, if you will. We talked for a long time about neuroscience and the importance of bringing contemporary psychology and the sciences together. And so there's a lot of great things that are happening and I think are gonna continue to happen by virtue of the intentionality with which you design space.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Dr. Mercullo, for your time today. Stay tuned for the next episode, where we will share more stories of success from the last 16 years. We'll see you next time for more. Four decades at Gonzaga. A conversation with Gonzaga University President Dane McCullough.
