To Be Continued...

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to Four Decades at Gonzaga, a conversation with Gonzaga University President Thane Mikolow. In this final podcast episode, we will hear from Gonzaga's 26th president, reflecting on his experiences over his nearly four decades in the Gonzaga community and talking about what's next. I'm your host, Sarah Schwering, a two time alumna and presidential communication specialist here at gu. In this last episode, we'll discuss some of the most significant changes occurring in higher ed today. Take a look back over 16 years, reflecting on what has been great, what could have been better, and what the Future holds. Welcome, Dr. McCullough. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Thank you very much, Sarah. Nice to be here. [00:00:42] Speaker A: So, Dr. McCullough, one of the most frustrating things is the constant questioning of the value of higher education. What do you think are the most important issues currently facing universities? [00:00:53] Speaker B: It depends on who you are, how frustrating it is or isn't. But speaking from my perspective, the greatest challenge is that there's a disconnect between what society more broadly thinks colleges and universities actually do and what they actually do. And the reason that that's so important is because the gap between perception and reality is no small part of what explains the difference in cost. Colleges and universities have grown to become sort of elements of the culture, cultural formation of uneducated leadership for the nation, for the world. And the expectations over time have grown in terms of what colleges and universities are doing and what they're expected to provide. Like any other service industry, the costs associated with that work has dramatically increased, while the support for that effort from the federal and state governments that have long supported higher education have really not increased, they've not appreciably grown. So the gap is what families and students are expected to cover. And that gap has continued to grow. And that is a source of frustration. It's very difficult to keep pace with the rate of inflation. And and yet the expectations continue to grow in terms of all the different services, all the different environments, all the different facilities, and all the different programs that universities are supposed to provide and should be providing. So writ large, the greatest frustration I have is that the nation has sort of lost its way in terms of both realizing how important higher education is and then continuing to support it. And so as a result, smaller and smaller numbers of people can afford it, and we need greater and greater numbers of people to be educated. So that is the great frustration for me. And I think it's a frustration that's shared by a lot of people. And I do hope that at some point we can have a kind of reset with respect to both what it is we expect as a nation from higher education and how to prioritize it as a really important part of investing in the future. There are countries like Norway, for example, that still cover the entire cost for a student to go to university. Housing, food, the whole nine yards. I mean, for Norway, that's an important national priority. They understand the investment they're making. So I hope that we might be able to have an intelligent discussion about what it is that we're trying to do as a nation and talk about the role that we expect higher ed to play, because I do think it should play a role, and I think that a lot's on the line. [00:03:43] Speaker A: So during your career, not just as president, but your career at Gonzaga, how would you say that higher education has changed both in terms of the student experiences and the challenges institutions face? [00:03:55] Speaker B: Well, I think a lot of the change that's occurred because there has been a considerable amount of change when I think about, for example, the amount of federal and state legislation that has mandated certain kinds of services, for example. And a lot of it is very important and significant in terms of expanding the reach and access it's been to be more responsive to a broader array of individuals and their needs. When I came to Gonzaga, we did not have an office for, for example, that was established to support students with disabilities. That was an office that I actually played a role in helping to create. That was probably unlikely to have occurred had the Americans with Disabilities act not been approved and signed into law by President Bush in 1990. And so there's a whole host of those kinds of legislative acts and federal policy decisions that have really shaped what it is that we do and how we are to understand our obligations to students and to really, the professions that they're going to go into. I see that as responsive to a lot of changes in our country's understanding of what students need to be successful, and a lot of changes in terms of what students are bringing with them that could otherwise create impediments or challenges for them to attain the educational objectives that they have. So it's become, I think, richer and more complex. But with that comes a lot of need for additional expertise and resources. [00:05:37] Speaker A: You bet. Talk to me a little bit, if you would, about the evolution of AI. When we're thinking about the higher ed landscape, I think there's so much still to learn, so much that is ever evolving. Talk to me about how Gonzaga has approached AI coming into the world, coming into the classroom, how our faculty, staff, and students have had to navigate even as early on as we are and what you think the future holds. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Artificial intelligence, as we are currently experiencing it, as the current sort of college bound generation is experiencing it, is in the form of widely available tools that have been developed relatively recently, but are actually built upon what was at one time called machine learning. And that has a long history, the foundations of artificial intelligence, probably 50 years in the making. And so I talk with alumni who are currently in the tech industry and have been in the industry for a long time, and they will talk about how Gonzaga, through its computer science program 30 years ago, gave them a great foundation for the work they currently do today in AI. The challenge with AI comes more in, in helping people understand that in a technically literate space where people can access information instantly, they need to be very cautious about how reliable the product of the tool that they're using is and learn to understand not only its potential, but its limitations. As tools like AI generation, ChatGPT, et cetera, they, they become ubiquitous, they become readily accessible. We are in a process of both teaching about what AI is and, and how individuals can learn to actually be in the creative space, but also how as consumers, they need to be really savvy about what its limitations are, what its biases are, because there are tremendous potentials, but also tremendous issues and limitations. And so at Gonzaga, as we've set up most recently an institute that is really focused on data and the future of technology, AI is playing a significant role because it's a, it's going to be a tool that is going to continue to become more powerful and more ubiquitous. And we want our students to understand it and how to work with it. And I'm excited for me, as I look back on the history of guys, it's just another example of how the university has paid attention to what's happening in the culture and then attempted to create a response to it. You know, it can be a very specific or very broad response, but we've even created whole programs in schools in response to the needs and the demands of professions. And so this is a, I think, timely and really also exciting opportunity. And I am grateful because we have a lot of support and from people who understand how important it's going to be. And so, yes, it's a, it's exactly the kind of thing that catalyzes this sort of dynamic response that I think is very typical of higher education, but in particular an institution like Gonzaga. And I'm proud of it. [00:09:04] Speaker A: So when we talked about the questioning of the value of higher Ed, you talked a lot about changes in funding, the political landscape and oftentimes dictating or changing, you know, what universities are allowed to do, able to do. We are in the space right now of a lot of new leadership at our national level, regional, local levels, and ever changing policies in the political landscape. And we are seeing so much shift in the space of higher Ed. What keeps you up at night? [00:09:35] Speaker B: Wow. Well, you know, I would have at one time answered that question more in terms of the university. Specifically the president of a university is responsible ultimately for what goes on and how the institution responds. And so a lot of the worries that I've had over time have been really focused on what is it that's happening that I don't know, that I should know? Do we have problems in a department that are going to rise up all of a sudden and become really significant? And that's a perennial concern, I think, for anyone who is in a leadership role. More recently, as we've seen a lot of sort of tectonic shifts in national perspective and in attitudes towards college and university leaders and higher education more broadly, I'm growing very concerned about the future of our nation. Education has always been a foundational catalyst for, for growth and development. Following World War II, the nation invested significantly in educating the workforce that had come out of the battles of World War II to help the nation become more competitive in science and technology and manufacturing and really every industry and profession. And, and it worked. I mean, investing in education works. It works has tremendous economic impact, benefits to the individual, but also communities. It changes and transforms the opportunities for the nation because being a knowledge generator puts you in a different position than just simply being a consumer. And United States has been a tremendous generator of knowledge. Technology has been one example of that. The birth of technology as we understand it today largely happened in the United States and it largely happened as a function of educational institutions that were commissioned by the people to develop and learn and understand what the potentials of technology could be. And it's worked. I mean, much of what the rest of the world benefits from and is opportunistically seizing upon was first created in the U.S. i worry if we don't continue to invest in education at all levels because higher education depends on K12, K12 depends on pre K. I mean, it's, it's the whole continuum of educational experiences. But if, if we do not have well educated communities and, and workforces and, and members of the society, we're not going to be advantaged in relationship to countries and cultures that do appreciate it and are investing. It's just a simple reality. And so I think that that is the great concern that I have. And, and I am hopeful that even though I believe that there are very good people who really believe that reforms are necessary and important, that at some point we have to settle in and, and sort of say to ourselves, what. What are we trying to get done here as a nation? And, and how do we bring ourselves together around the reality that there are countries that are really set on becoming the leaders of the generative workforce of the future, and they're working very hard at it right now. And so where we end up is going to be a function of how we respond to understanding and appreciating that broader reality. [00:13:11] Speaker A: So you mentioned being hopeful. Talk to me about how in spite of, or amidst all of these changes, so many which are out of our control, how have you continued to instill confidence and trust not just in higher education, but in a Gonzaga degree? [00:13:26] Speaker B: Well, I think that the first and most important piece of evidence that one really only needs to look to is what our alumni are actually out there doing. And what they are doing is incredible and amazing and is making a huge difference in all kinds of different places and spaces. Some people are, you know, leading the way with respect to all kinds of professional applications. Some people are. Are working in nonprofits. Some people are working as politicians in civic duty and leadership. There's no area of the country, no profession that we don't have zags actively working and in many cases, contributing to what we know and. And where we need to move. It's profoundly humbling because as well, so many of them do credit their experience at Gonzaga with not just having played a role in deciding what they were going to go into, but really preparing them well and also, to a certain degree, preparing them well for a future that is. That is not set. You know, we're in a environment where increasingly people have to be willing to. And many people are actually interested in continuing to evolve their careers and make changes. They're not necessarily interested in doing one thing for their entire life or working for one organization. So the ability that comes with the liberal arts of being able to understand how to be creative and how to take information and opportunities and forge a path for yourself is, I think, very powerful in a space where there's so much that's changing. So I look to those who graduate, and they are the ones who keep me hopeful, because despite everything that's going on, I don't think that people go to college unless they believe that college is going to make a difference and that they have hope in being able to have an impact on the future. And, and so colleges and universities are fundamentally hopeful places, hope filled places. And I think if we start losing track of that, if we start getting all in our own stuff and not paying attention to sort of the broader import and impact of what we're trying to do, it's not a good thing. So I am very grateful because this job allows me to do that. [00:15:58] Speaker A: This July, you will have served Gonzaga University for 16 years as, as president, the second longest tenure of any president at our institution. What would you say is a moment in your career that really shaped who you are today? [00:16:12] Speaker B: It's really difficult to pin that down because it is the aggregation of so many different experiences. I mean, one of the things that's been happening this spring, may I say, much to my dismay, is an awful lot of unnecessary attention. And there are so many people who are so generous and they've been so kind, and they've given me way more credit for what has been accomplished than I deserve. We are a community of people that figure out together how we're going to do this. And with rare exceptions, people have been willing to kind of take ideas and, and run with them and, and we've been able to do some wonderful things as a result. I'm very grateful for that. But as a learning institution, I've also been a learning president. You know, I know more today than I ever did about what I probably need to do to actually be effective. And I've always said this, you know, it'll be the day after I'm done that I'm like, well, geez, I should have done that really differently. But so many people have taught me along the way about things that we might want to consider or ways I might want to go about things that it's. It's difficult to pin down. One example, and I am grateful for that. I'm trying to write a lot of thank you notes and express to various people how they have had an impact. There have certainly been sort of these moments where we've had to face challenges and figure out what we're made of. And I suppose that's a place where, you know, it would be natural to go. But there have been more of those than people may be aware of and personal, probably more than, you know, I can even myself really remember. But those certainly have been tests of the question, so what did you learn along the way? And yeah, that's a, that's a really tough Question. [00:18:05] Speaker A: So you've often said that life is about choices and having the ability to make choices. Our students choose to make this their home or families choose to entrust us with their students. Faculty and staff choose Gonzaga to give of their talents and time. Why was becoming Gonzaga's 26th president a choice? A risk worth taking? [00:18:28] Speaker B: You know, it begins with the recognition that you believe in the place and you believe in what it's about. And then recognize, too, that if you have great people to work with and you have the opportunity to parlay what excites you and, and also what disappoints you into actionable responses, you're in a pretty rare space. You know, we, we have. And, and often people will talk about privilege, and it is privilege to be in a situation where you have as many opportunities and choices available to you about how you're going to spend time, who you're going to spend time with, how you're going to focus your energy, how you might access networks. I've always been super conscious of that. My hope is that Gonzaga has, through the course of. Of our time with it, come to understand how truly powerful it is and what an impact it can make when it's doing its work really well. To me, that's inspiring, and it's also carries with it just so much potential. So I, I think that it wasn't easy in one way to say, sure, I'll do that, because there are a lot of reasons, beginning with my own concerns about adequacy. But I think that at the same time, it was super easy because what we do really does transform lives, and it also creates huge opportunity for the people that we serve and the communities that they serve. That is, it's really, really super humbling, and it's been a privilege to be a part of. [00:20:15] Speaker A: So Dr. Katia Passerini is taking the reins in July. What are your hopes as she steps into this role? What advice do you have for her? [00:20:24] Speaker B: Well, that's also really tough because, you know, so much of what you want is the expression of who that person is to find its voice. And, you know, know, my first hope is actually that this is a community that embraces her and that it is a place that she falls in love with. Because these times are not easy times for colleges and universities, and they're not easy times for college and university presidents. And I think that there's a lot on the line, there's a lot at stake, and if you don't come to love the institution that you serve, you can be really difficult. But I sense in her somebody who cares deeply about this work and understands how universities operate and has had the experience of serving a number of institutions in a variety of roles that have great relevance for Gonzaga today. And that excites me. I hope for her that she finds joy in. In the work, because if you can do that, then different kinds of things become possible. Relationships with colleagues are transformational in a. In a richer way. How that whole curse, from my perspective, is by people beginning to embrace her and to. To allow her to feel the kind of love and support that this community is capable of and does extend to its members. Then I hope that the kind of dynamic, kind of energy that can ensue informs her work and supports her as she begins to listen to where we as a university are, to move and has support as she moves in that direction. [00:22:18] Speaker A: Thinking back to 16 years ago, when you stepped into this role, if you could, what is one piece of advice that. That you would give to yourself back then? [00:22:27] Speaker B: It's a very good question. I'm. I'm not sure, other than to say the experience of assuming leadership of a university, which is a daunting idea, is best mastered if you are able to access people who have done it and who are willing to be generous and honest with you about the mistakes that they made and the ways in which they would have possibly gone about things differently if they had another shot at it. It's a difficult question for me because I had already been a part of the university for so long. It wasn't easy to take off the hat that I had been wearing for so many years, which is that of a peer and a colleague in a variety of areas, and then all of a sudden become the president. And there's all this mythology around what a president is. I kind of think they should come up with a different title, but that's another conversation. But. But I think that, you know, you can't just shed, you know, your identity when you've been part of an institution as long as I had been privileged to be. And. And yet you do change, and the role demands that you behave in different ways. And so I probably would have benefited from having mentors or a great mentor who really had a legitimate claim on what that experience could be and could have been, because I might have then been able to accelerate into a greater level of confidence, might have made certain decisions more quickly or made them in. In different ways. All of that was sort of on the job. So that. That's probably the one wish that I have. [00:24:17] Speaker A: What Will you miss the most? [00:24:19] Speaker B: There are so many things about this institution that are woven into my identity as an individual that it will probably be the little things, not the big things. There are little things that become part of your custom. There are these moments where I drive to work and I drive into the parking lot and I just take a moment to look at the main entrance in the autumn, or when I pause to look at the beautiful environment that our colleagues create in the seasons and just really steep myself in the experience of understanding how special it is. Just the opportunity to walk across campus and run into people that I've worked with for many years and some people who've just joined our community, our students, and when they come in the fall, how excited they are and how they're all wearing pajamas by Christmas time, and they don't care at all what anybody thinks because they've become so comfortable. I think that what we do is really important, and it's also really special. So there's a lot of things that I think I will. I will miss. It'll probably be a constant sort of sequence of surprises about, oh, yeah, that's. That's something I used to do. But it. But it's all part of the process, and it's. I think it's part of leave taking that happens for a lot of people when they. You know, when they've been a part of a place for so long. [00:25:58] Speaker A: For nearly 40 years, you have been a fundamental part of creating the story of Gonzaga. What would you say to those listening who have helped write this story? [00:26:09] Speaker B: I would say thank you, because the work is inextricably linked with the generosity and support of all those constituencies and members of our broader community. When I set out to do this work, I said, if I had one way of kind of capturing my hope, it would be that while we all have seen, and we've been watching higher education evolve now for decades, with that evolution, there have been a number of schools, institutions that have closed. They have not been successful in getting the enrollments that they needed, or they have faltered in some way and found themselves in a financial pinch. And about those institutions, their communities, and their alumni, you know, have been in grief, and they've wished that something could have happened to allow those institutions to continue. But I've always wanted for Gonzaga that the community, the community of alumni, the community of Spokane, the state of Washington, whoever we're pointing to, that their response to the prospect of a Gonzaga ceasing to exist would be, we cannot let that happen. There's just no way. We cannot imagine Spokane without a Gonzaga. We can't imagine the country without a Gonzaga. That is my hope. My hope is that we prove our worth. We make our alumni proud, that when they come back and they visit and they see the next thing that we added to the portfolio, they see that we're enriching their degree, that we are building on the foundation that they have been a part of, and that they look at Gonzaga and say, you're still doing the kind of work that we want to see and that we know our nation and our world need and that they're proud of that and that they're willing to participate with us in keeping it going. Because I think that the truth is there's a lot of schools around the country and they're all competing with one another and they're all talking in similar ways about the value that they bring, the experiences they try to create. How do we continue to distinguish a Gonzaga University education in such a way that it's not necessarily unique, but it's also in many respects, irreplaceable? That's the way that I would like people to think about gu and so it's why we lean in and we partner with, participate in trying to create a tech hub for spokanen and North Idaho. It's. It's why the welfare of our community members in the Northeast neighborhood matters to us. We don't have to do those things if we remain insular. We must do those things if we are to be considered relevant and irreplaceable. And so I am grateful for the support, and I'm grateful for the ways in which people have showed up to keep this thing moving. And I. I would hope that we prove ourselves in such a manner that as things continue to evolve. People keep saying we can't imagine this place without a Gonzaga. [00:29:36] Speaker A: I want to thank you for agreeing to do this podcast. First of all, you mentioned that this past spring especially has been full of celebrations, most of which we had to really work with you to be okay with, because you and Julie are two of the most humble, quiet leaders. And by that I mean always wanting others to know that were it not for them, none of this would be possible. So I thank you for agreeing to do this. I'm sure it was your favorite thing to agree to. But perhaps more than that, I just want to thank you for the privilege and the honor of working alongside you for so many years, witnessing all that you've done as an alum. I am more proud than ever to be a part of this place and your willingness to share your story, to reflect back on your many, many years, many of which you served at the helm of this place. I don't think it could be in a better place at this point. Do so in large part to all that you've done. So I thank you for your guidance, your leadership. You're teaching me as an alum, as a colleague, as a friend. So I thank you well, and I. [00:30:51] Speaker B: Thank you in turn. I mean, this has been a unique opportunity. And you're right, it's difficult to imagine that there would be people out there who would have any interest in hearing my boring responses. But I really appreciate you letting me tell you a few stories along the way. And I am excited about the future for Gonzaga. I think that Dr. Passerini is going to do a very good job. I think, you know, the institution has a lot of potential and right alongside all the challenges, many of which in recent years, you've been a part of helping us succeed through, there have also been opportunities. And I'm grateful to you and I'm grateful for the opportunity that we've had to work together these years, too. And I am really looking forward to how the future unfolds. It's going to be great. And I am looking forward to celebrating along with my fellow alums as we watch the university continue to develop and advance. It'll be great. [00:31:56] Speaker A: Well, that wraps it up for four decades at Gonzaga, a conversation with Gonzaga University President Thane McCullough. But while this podcast may be coming to an end, I think, just like your journey, that we can all agree that this is just the beginning. And as someone very wise once said, to be continued.